Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Alright, welcome back to Eliminate the Gap. Long time no, see, uh, I know it's been a moment. Uh, Delmar and I and Raul, we've all been super busy and uch, uh, over there, uh, across the pond. We've all been having a very busy, uh, last few months, so our apologies. But we are very excited to be back and with you and, and super as we going back to school. Uh, so many of us, uh, it really matches with our theme this evening. So, Dell, uh, how you been doing? How's the summer?
Speaker 1 00:00:32 Hey, I had a wonderful summer man jam packed with going places, seeing lots of folks that I hadn't seen in a while. I didn't get to see you very much though this summer. This is very disappointing for me.
Speaker 0 00:00:46 I'm making move. I got, I gotta be out and about. Um, yeah, it's a very busy summer, but, you know, it's always exciting to be back in school. Um, and as I mentioned, we have a, a, you know, a, a very interesting, I think, compelling guest, uh, this evening with us, uh, Austin Hunley, uh, who is a restorative practices coordinator at his school, and we'll learn specifically more about what's all involved with that. So, welcome Austin, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2 00:01:17 Well, thank you guys for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 0 00:01:21 Absolutely. And, and, and so, uh, as I was mentioning at Delmar, uh, earlier in preparation for this call, I hear the word restorative practices and, and being the youth development person, uh, in my career, I think of restorative justice initially, right? That's the phrasing that kind of comes on. Um, so why don't you just jump right in and, and tell us a little bit about not only what restorative practices is and how it unfolds in your school, and then maybe weave in how you even came to this. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:01:52 Absolutely. I think it's, it's, uh, worthy of starting off by mentioning these, these thoughts are not my own, right? So, uh, these, these are things I've studied, um, and, and been put in position to, uh, to apply in my work. Um, so really restorative practices is the science of relationships, right? So it is a, it is a means of taking that, that thing that we all as educators know is really, really important and kind of giving it a process and giving it a, uh, a place in a, in a, in a way that can be broken down. Um, so, so, and, and also in the idea of like community building, right? So you're not far off when you're talking about restorative justice. And, and that's a, that's a part of it. I I think restorative practices a lot of times is, is seen as that response to harm.
Speaker 2 00:02:39 Um, but it's a big umbrella that has lots of components involved in it. So, um, really, um, where it comes from is, is it was really an inspiration of indigenous communities. Um, so for example, a restorative conference, which is similar to the restorative justice initiatives that you might be familiar, um, with, comes from the Maori people of, uh, New Zealand. Um, and they used those practices to restore harm that would've been done in their community and, and really that that process was adapted. Um, what I, what I practiced in my current school is a, is a curriculum that's was created by the first school, um, in the world, um, dedicated to restorative practices in, um, I I R P, the International Institute of Restorative Practices. Um, and, uh, they, uh, have really taken the science behind it and unpacked it for people in a way that's really understandable.
Speaker 2 00:03:34 But it's, it's brought on by lots of theories of behavior, right? So the idea of fair process is, is one of, one of the, uh, key components of, of restorative practices, you know, if we know what the outcomes are gonna be, if we're a part of the outcomes, um, and, and we have a say in the outcomes, we're gonna feel better about 'em. And then, uh, the social discipline window, which is basically a theory that says people respond better when things are done with them instead of to them, right? So our more punitive measures, things are done to us, and in a restorative school, things are done hand in hand with, with the student or, or done hand in hand in, in terms of building community. Um, and then probably my favorite is Bright White's theory, which is this idea that, um, we separate the deeded from the doer, right?
Speaker 2 00:04:18 So especially when you're working like myself in a middle school, that's pretty easy for me to do because, you know, I was 11, 12, and 13 before and <laugh> and, you know, definitely stumbled at times in my life. So, um, being able to kind of separate kids from their mistakes, right? So at our, at our school, um, there's, there's a continuum, right? So really what the work that all the teachers do, right? So is, is really the, is the most important work, quite frankly. I, I get to do some of the fun work, which is, which is a small portion of it, but 80% of the work is, is proactive, right? So the idea is that really restorative practices isn't all this response to harm. 80% of the work is done in the classrooms, in community building, and there's a lot, lots of ways to, to do that.
Speaker 2 00:05:06 But it, but again, it's that science of relationships, right? So one of the major things I think people hear about is the circles, right? When you hear about restorative practices, you hear about circles, right? So in, in a proactive circle, we're we are just being intentional about the time that we take an instructional time to provide, um, conversation with students. That has nothing to do with curriculum, right? So that's what at, at my school, our staff does a fantastic job. Um, it, it was hard to kind of break down some of the barriers of, hey, we're not gonna sit in a, in a circle and sing kumbaya and talk about feelings all the time, but sometimes it's like, Hey, uh, you know, what's your favorite kind of sandwich? <laugh>, you know, like that, something just to break down barriers, to build intentional connections, really, right?
Speaker 2 00:05:50 Because, uh, I think it's hard sometimes for, for us older folks to, to relate to, uh, the younger generation, right? So these are just ways to intentionally do it. Um, now I in my school get to do the 20%, so the 80% is happening in the classrooms, right? Right. Intentional ways. And there's lots of ways to do that, you know, um, but circles is the way that we do it in proactive circles. Um, but then my job is really all focused around the 20%, um, which is the responsive, um, efforts of restorative, uh, justice and restorative work, which is probably what people are most familiar with. Um, and it, it can be, uh, something that, that people, you know, are, can love or people are like, Hey, that doesn't work at all. Um, so, uh, so I, I'll give you an example. So we have, at our, at our, at my school something, I run a classroom called the A L C, which is the Alternative learning center. So, so like I said, in the classroom, we're doing circles in my room when a kid is referred to me, it is, it is related to a discipline infraction. And really the whole idea is of the classroom that I run is to reroute kids away from suspension. Suspension doesn't work. There's tons of research that shows that it's not an effective strategy. Punitive measures are, are rather ineffective. So, so what we use is of, of the continuum is something called affective questions. So when a kid comes into me, we ask them those. Hang on
Speaker 0 00:07:17 Real quick, I, I just for clarity for those that, that maybe aren't in the school setting, uh, but thinking about this, um, what get somebody to you, what, what are most likely the things that would've, uh, resulted in them getting a referral to you?
Speaker 2 00:07:37 Hmm. Well, it's evolved over time, and I think we're gonna talk about that a little bit more later. But really right now we're, we're looking at, um, we, if we have a, a physical altercation, um, if we have a fight, if, um, one of the things that I do and have been doing a lot more of lately is, um, resolving, uh, conflict. We look at the three Ds, right? So, um, disruption, uh, defiance, um, and disrespect, right? So those are really subjective. Um, and, and really based on personalities, right? So when we have minor referrals of teachers, um, in, in situations that can, you know, with a student where a student is displaying some of these behaviors, we try to bridge the gap between the teacher and the student to try to resolve those incidents and those referral, those referrals have been coming in. I did about 60 of those formal conferences last year, but it can be for any variety of of things. So, um, does that answer your question?
Speaker 0 00:08:39 Absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:08:40 Awesome. So, so when a kid gets to me, gets to my room, um, the first thing that I do with them is I do a bio, because I'm a big believer that you can't work with someone until you know them, right? So they are typically, um, excited to talk to me about something other than the poor choice that they made <laugh>. So, and, and we ask them anything like, Hey, what's your favorite food? And, and really how I try to do it is I play it like ping pong. I tell 'em, you can ask me anything and I'll ask you anything. Um, but really, I want to get to know them. What, what, you know, what's the structure of their family? Um, what's their day-to-day like, what are they interested in? Um, how, how do they get to school? Like, you know, I just try to really get a good understanding of them as people. Um, but then restoratively, we begin with, uh, those affective or restorative questions, and that's a couple of questions, right? It's like five questions, and it's on a sheet of paper where kids come in and I just ask them to be really honest about their responses. So the first question is, what happened, right? So initially with that question, we're trying to disarm you, right? What happened? And a lot of times when we respond as adults to situations that occur, we're like, why did you do that? Right? Well, immediately, what's your response gonna be?
Speaker 0 00:09:52 Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, <laugh>,
Speaker 2 00:09:54 Are you guys gonna be on the defense if I'm like, why did you do that? Right? Right. You're gonna be like, well, <laugh>, right? Always. It's all about, yeah. Again, it's the science of relationships, right? So it's the idea that like the way you speak to someone matters, language matters. So, um, what happened? You get to tell me your unique vantage point of what happened. Uh, what were you thinking about at the time? Not what you're thinking about now because you might be regretful now, but in the moment of that decision that you made, what were you thinking, right? How did it impact, um, yourself? Okay, so you're sitting in my room, which is not your typical setting. Maybe your mom is upset that you made a decision that you may maybe got a consequence at home to opportunity to say how those choices, maybe, maybe a friend is now not a friend, um, in the physical altercation world, um, uh, how did it impact other people?
Speaker 2 00:10:45 So what was the impact on the school environment? We really want them to sit in that a little bit, um, and have them think about that. And then how, how are we gonna go about making this right? And, and we, how can we help make this right, right together? The width idea of the restorative continuum? So that's what happens in my room, um, on a, every kid does that level, right? So, um, and then we kind of go from there as we go up the continuum, because every process in the continuum requires more time. Um, but every single child that's referred to me, um, does, does, uh, answer those questions and then we follow that. Um, not, they're not just writing, right? And then I just collect it and it gets dusty, we didn't talk about it, and we process and we process and we process. So we process every item in that list of questions to, to dig further into, um, you know, the things that as they're writing it down, they're not really maybe thinking about
Speaker 0 00:11:41 How long does that take, generally one of those discussions.
Speaker 2 00:11:45 So a kid, a kid can be referred to me from anywhere from a period of class. Our classes are 50 minutes long. Um, so if they're having an issue just specific to class, my administration has been great on identifying like, Hey, we don't need to take that kid out of the full rotation. Um, so they might come to me, uh, for a class period. They might come to me over the course of three days for that specific class period. And I've had kids up to a week, you know, or in, and in some cases a little bit longer, depending on their, you know, offense. Um, some of the more serious offenses require a little bit more time, and we, and we have some more strategies and structures that we put into place, um, that I can kind of speak to as we, as we continue on.
Speaker 2 00:12:28 Um, but yeah, it can, it, it varies from kid to kid. And again, it's all from administrative referral, which I think is really important because we have, um, previously we had three adminis, uh, three assistant principals who really oversaw that process and referred from their grade level. Um, so it's not something that a teacher can just go, you know, oh, I'm just gonna send a kit down to Mr. Leys room that that's not allowed. Um, so that structure has been really, really important in ensuring, um, that the room continues to serve at the, at the idea, um, the ideal, um, of which it was, uh, created.
Speaker 1 00:13:04 Alright. Well, Austin, why don't you tell us a little bit about how your program came to be, because I know that's a unique situation as well.
Speaker 2 00:13:13 It is. And, uh, you know, it's, it's kind of, uh, it's interesting. It's, it's the, the mixture of need and perfect timing. Um, so I was working at another school division and just, I had to branch out. I had a friend that reached out to me, was like, Hey, man, you gotta come to this school. You, you would love it here. And I was like, okay, I'll check it out. So, uh, I ended up showing up and at, at the same exact time I was working on my, uh, degree in administration and supervision. So, um, and, and in my first year, and it was the year prior to covid, right? So, or the year that, actually the year that we got knocked out on March 13th or whatever date it was, right? And, uh, so during my, during my free block, they had said, Hey, as part of your admin internship, we want you to do a variety of things.
Speaker 2 00:13:58 And they kind of, you know, had me follow the dynamic leader who's actually now our principal. Um, and basically I, I've followed her everywhere she went. And, uh, it was just clear there was a need, right? So the, the discipline process at the time was, you know, there was gonna be suspensions or, or there was gonna be some level of mediation within the counseling department, or we're a big school. We have 1500 kids, right? And we have a counseling department of about four people, uh, five people depending on the year and depending on our numbers. Um, and, uh, it, it, it was a lot of office sitting is what was happening. 'cause you know, the, the code of Virginia had changed where the restorative, restorative measures was almost required. Um, but then I had this principal at the time, not the assistant principal that's now our principal, so there's lots of people moving part here, but, uh, the principal at, at the time, just a visionary.
Speaker 2 00:14:52 She's a big idea person, and she's just fantastic at, at finding an idea and, and just going for it with, with no regrets. No, no question. Just going for it. Um, and it's, and, and she was just kind of came to me at, at the end of the year and was like, Hey, you're, you're kind of good with these kids. What if we did this? 'cause I know you also kind of studying this. And I was like, huh, well, yeah, that sounds pretty good. I like that idea. Um, and it, and originally I was called a multi-tiered support specialist, which is a big term in terms of the tier support systems in schools, right? So they're like, yeah, you just kind of do all the things in the tiers, and we're not, we're not really sure how that's gonna go. And, um, but we had a, uh, head of counseling at the time that had written a proposal the year prior, and it was like this idea of this special classroom.
Speaker 2 00:15:37 And basically that served, um, as the structure, and she went on to be the head of our division for social emotional learning. So I, I've been lucky to work with just these amazing people, really amazing women, um, who just had great ideas, and they just were like, you're kind of the guy to make the ideas happen. So I was really, I was really lucky, um, in terms of my timing. Um, and I have a unique skillset. So I was an in intensive in-home counselor for a long time, and then my, when I got into, uh, teaching, I, uh, taught and emotionally, uh, you know, disabled students. So my, my whole, my whole start of my career was as a, as a self-contained, um, special education teacher. So my skillset had kind of led me to this moment, my, my ability to, um, talk to kids, deescalate situations, things of that nature.
Speaker 2 00:16:27 Um, and then again, these people who just had great ideas, um, and vision, um, and they all just kind of, it all just kind of aligned. And that's, that's how it came to be. Um, and, and again, and then Covid happened and it all just kind of blew up. And it was like, are we really gonna do this still? And it, and it was, you know, right. I used to, I used to joke that the M T S S was move the stuff somewhere, um, because during COVID there was no kids to serve, you know, and I was like chasing kids in and outta Zoom. Uh, but then we came back from covid and it was very clear that we were definitely gonna need the program, um, which was, which was cool, um, because that, that was really the start of something special, um, coming back from covid and that, and that's really where the program took off. We saw about 400 students that year. Um, so that, that's really how the A L C came to be. Ooh.
Speaker 1 00:17:18 Uh, can you tell us a little bit about like, the core tenets of your program that you have?
Speaker 2 00:17:25 Yeah, so I spoke about our now principal, and she was really big on, you're not a disciplinarian, you're not a disciplinarian, you're not a disciplinarian. There were some hard conversations because I, you know, I'm, I'm a go-getter, so I put my nose into places that maybe they don't belong sometimes. So I'm like, you know, trying to, trying, but good intentions or good intentions. But every once in a while I'd be like, Hey, how about I help with that? It was like, Hey, you're not a disciplinarian, right? And that, that really became huge in the program. Um, you can't be a peacekeeper. You can't be someone that's a peacekeeper, but also the person that's laying down the, the discipline, um, because we have found that those two things still have to go hand in hand. It can't just be completely restorative. There does, in certain circumstances, still need to be some level of, um, punitive measure.
Speaker 2 00:18:15 Um, and, and really the people that are against restorative practices kind of say that that's the, that's the balance that you have to find, right? Because there still does have to be, you're, you're running a school with 1500 kids, right? So you have to take into the, into mind the impact that these actions of, of individuals have on, uh, on a vast, you know, huge population of other individuals. Um, so not a disciplinarian, right? That, that became very clear right out the gates and, and my, my now principals just like, Hey, no matter what, you're not coming into us to search a kid. You're not coming in to remove you. Don't remove kids from classrooms. That was huge. Um, and then I think the, again, as I spoke, one of the major te is we process hard things. So we're gonna have hard conversations with kids, right?
Speaker 2 00:19:04 And, and we're gonna talk about hard moments in a way that there is no judgment of the choice. That's hard to do, and that's hard to pull off, but we do it pretty well. Um, and I say we, because I'm, I'm joined by, I have a, I have, I've been lucky to have awesome assistances in my room. Um, so when I say we, that's who I'm talking about. But also the administration that that's led me to kind of where I'm, but really at the core of what we do, it's all about quality relationships. And, and, and that's hard for some people. Um, I, I used to joke, I was never a very good teacher, but the one thing that I was good at was, uh, was, uh, working with kids and, and kind of getting down to that personal level with them. I, you know, I, I struggled to, to get the, the metrics that people would want in terms of student achievement, but I always, always had a room that was gonna be high functioning in terms of classroom management, um, and the way kids felt when they left me and, and when they were in my classroom space.
Speaker 2 00:19:58 So really, the, the idea is, is based off all off of that, is that that quality relationship, but for the students, the major tenant is this, I need you to be accountable, and I need you to be honest. So that's where restorative practices doesn't work all the time, <laugh>. But it's also where, because it's a judgment free zone, and I'm not a disciplinarian, um, and, and I stay in that lane, that that allows it to be very, very effective because kids begin, and because of that quality relationship, right? All those things come together and there's a, there's a sense that I can be honest about my mistakes, which if I'm honest about my mistakes, then I can then begin to be accountable for my mistakes, um, without judgment of, of, uh, someone and, and then really support. So, and it, and it goes back to that idea right in, in the last minute.
Speaker 2 00:20:48 I don't wanna get, you know, too, I, I talked about this for hours, guys, so I'm a bit of a rambler, but, uh, uh, you know, for me it's also about being proactive. So we have some check-in checkout processes that we do with kids that have come up on radar multiple times. Um, we try to really embed with them early and often. So we have like a separate, almost, if you could imagine two separate programs, right? We have our check-in checkout students, which it's all, oh man, you crushed it today. Look at you like, and, and we have a form that teachers fill out through the day to communicate with me. Um, and, and we do coaching, right? So we're doing behavioral coaching and, and academic coaching, uh, through that process. And, and those pro proactive measures, I like to think, prevent a lot of issues from occurring. Um, but they're all typically identified through, uh, visits to the alc, um, and through our intervention process. So those, those are the major tenets though.
Speaker 3 00:21:41 Um, so
Speaker 0 00:21:43 Got maybe two more questions, and this is gonna be one of them. Um, so you're describing a, a larger school with, uh, clear separate, uh, function. And, and, uh, as I mentioned to you before we came on, I'm in a school of maybe 500 people total. Um, and so
Speaker 3 00:22:05 How
Speaker 0 00:22:06 Can elements of this, so lemme say this, you mentioned a core tenant being, um, you're not a disciplinarian, so it's not like the dean can pick this up and where that happened, and then be the execution or two, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So help me if you have thoughts on ways in which, uh, this can be applied maybe in a smaller school where you don't have everybody with those discreet, uh, separations of power.
Speaker 2 00:22:35 Yeah. I think you still need to make a space for it, right? So physical space is important, and I know that's hard, especially in smaller schools, but having a physical setup in a space where it can happen, right? You also have to have people that have vision, right? So vision is important, and you have to know what you, what you want as outcomes, right? We knew immediately that one of the outcomes that we wanted was to reroute kids from suspension. And we knew immediately that one of the outcomes that we wanted was to have proactive measures to support those kids lagging skills, if you'll, right? Um, so, so that was really at the core of what we wanted to do. So I had the, I had the, the framework of the idea from the former, uh, head of counseling. I had the vision from, from the, uh, then principal, and then I had the sticktoitiveness of our now principal who was like, Hey, you're not a disciplinarian, but I think in a smaller school, right?
Speaker 2 00:23:28 You, you gotta kind of know, Hey, what do we need? Okay, we have to establish and, and check, and, and that only happens through observing and, and looking at data. And, and, and that would be the first step, right? Mm-hmm. What, mm-hmm. So what are our functions? How do we handle discipline? Where does our staff need development? Because what has now become part of it is a training. We do training too. So one of the things that I do is I, we have 120 staff, all of them are trained in proactive circle, all, every single person. And then, and then if every new teacher that comes in gets a training as well, and then last year we also introduced the idea of the affective questions. How do you manage conflict? So we identified immediately we want those roles. Okay? So our teachers, they're doing the proactive supports, the 80% of the work, right?
Speaker 2 00:24:14 So I think having clearly defined roles, having a physical space and understanding what your outcomes want to be, uh, what you want your outcomes to be rather, um, is, is critical in, in identifying what then your tenets of your program would be. Um, because I'll tell you, there's a, there's a program of, uh, across the county that does the same thing. They have a very different school, very different school. Um, and a lot of what the guy that's in my position does is he goes in and conducts a lot of the proactive circles. I don't have, I do that at the beginning of the year and, and people will schedule me at times, but he does it all times. And then the other part that he does is a ton of academic intervention that used to be an aspect of my program, especially during covid.
Speaker 2 00:25:01 Um, because again, the behaviors were, Hey, I'm not showing up on Zoom, right? Um, but that has, while we do some academic coaching, it's not nearly to the level of what we used to do, um, during that time period, because so much of it is focused on that behavioral modification and, and working with students to identify strategies, um, that can allow them to be more successful. And, and again, it's very dependent on kids. So you might have a school where you can have a person in my role wear multiple hats. It can be an academic interventionalist, which again, I can wear that hat occasionally. And I, I run an afterschool program where I do some of that with an amazing staff of teachers. Um, but I also, um, during the day at this point, I mean with the check-in checkout processes and all the things that, that's our focus, that's, and that's, that's where my, my role changed. They started calling me the NC instead of the ncsf. They started calling me the restorative practices coordinator. Um, because really that was the role, develop skills in the staff and work with the staff on staff development, run the A L C, um, you know, and then, and then work with kids proactively to avoid these issues occurring. Um, as well as the formal conferences that I referred to earlier, which take a ton of time. Um, but you know, it, I think it's dependent on your school and what your needs are.
Speaker 0 00:26:23 Uh, I appreciate you walking us through all of that. And that's, uh, certainly some good food for thought, I imagine for, for folks, uh, in our audience that are showing up in, you know, in different, uh, environments. Um, that's a good question. Last kind of last question, kind of, and to summarize this here, and we'll end with this question, help us, uh, understand what resources, uh, material, uh, websites, things like that, that, that, uh, either folks can see your work and, and, and, or the state of Virginia, it sounds like is behind this approach, or where can people find some additional information?
Speaker 2 00:27:01 Additional information? So I would absolutely recommend, um, looking at the International Institute of Restorative Practices, uh, their wealth of knowledge and, uh, just how long they've been doing it. They have really adapted restorative justice and, and have specific module modules and, and models, um, that are specific to schools. A lot of what I have crafted comes from that. Um, and then, and then the other piece for me is we, we created a lot of what we do, uh, and, and scratch, because it was like, what do we need? How do we do it? How do we, how do we, uh, know who's coming in? Well, we had to create a, you know, and a lot of it's done through, I mean, I wish I could be like, Hey, here's a, here's a link to a website. Right? But Right, okay. A lot of it is, uh, you know, Microsoft Office and, um, we're using forms and, and we're measuring, you know, outcomes and metrics through the use of our, our digital tools, um, that we've created.
Speaker 2 00:27:57 Um, but, you know, you can look anywhere and look up what are the restorative questions, and that's, that's a major thing. And then i r p is, is really where the wealth of knowledge and the, and, uh, a great majority of the training, um, that I received. Um, you know, my, my, again, my, my boss, that was my previous boss, she was, she was great at like, go to the training, go to the training, sent me to the training, sent me to every, everything that she could get my hands on through I r P, um, 'cause they have a whole, they actually have a whole master's program dedicated to it. And I didn't do all of that, but I was able to go through their training to trainer series and, and several other items so that I could kind of bring it home, uh, to our school.
Speaker 0 00:28:38 Great. That's, uh, that's, that's helpful. Uh, and we'll certainly make sure that we drop the link to, to, to that organization, uh, as part of, uh, the release of, of this podcast. Delmar, uh, looks like we're coming to a close of yet another fascinating, uh, subject. Anything imparting thoughts before we, uh, wrap up?
Speaker 1 00:29:01 No, I really just, uh, wanna thank you for coming on Austin and sharing this model. And, uh, I know this is a very, uh, something near and dear to your heart. So I'm glad we had a chance to really bring you on and, and talk about this. 'cause this really is a passion of yours, and I'm hoping that, uh, you know, if people have questions, you know, if we can even provide you, you know, if people wanna reach out to you, if you're okay with us providing your information to share that as well.
Speaker 2 00:29:36 Yeah, absolutely. I'd, I'd be happy to, to help anyone along this journey because I think it's what's in the best interest of kids, um, you know, and adults, because this work is hard. <laugh> this, this work is hard, right? So, uh, but I thank you guys, um, for the opportunity and allowing me to utilize your platform to spread this message.
Speaker 0 00:29:55 Yeah, our pleasure, our pleasure. Again, thank you Austin, so much. And, uh, thank you to our, uh, listeners slash viewers. Uh, we are back. We have, uh, more episodes coming much more quickly, uh, as we, uh, hit the ground running this fall. Uh, so we look forward to seeing you again. Until next time. Uh, we'll see you guys later.
