Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:03 Oh my goodness, it certainly is. Well, welcome back to Eliminate the Gap season three. Uh, we are so grateful, uh, to have each of you joining us again, uh, for the premiere episode, uh, here, starting our third year, uh, doing Eliminates the Gap, the podcast. And, uh, it's continued nicely to grow you all. Continue to engage with us and share your thoughts and ideas and, and we're forever grateful. We have some wonderful things in store for you this season. Um, continue to, uh, engage and involve folks from all over the world in a variety of subject areas, most importantly, there to help support the work that you're doing out in the community. And, and so, uh, with that, I welcome in, of course, Delmar. You all know Delmar. Welcome back, uh, to season three, Delmar. And, uh, go ahead and introduce our guest and our topic this morning. Uh, this evening. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:00:58 All right. So, so our guest today is Angie Krak. Uh, I've had the pleasure of working with, uh, Angie. We actually work in the same school district and in the same school. And, uh, actually this, this actually became a thing, Eric and I, we had talked about it, but Angie and I had actually had several conversations around, uh, just special education and just the, the where we currently are and where we've been and, you know, what things we possibly see in the future and things. So this is one episode that I know that we've wanted to do. And so just talking with Angie, I was like, Hey, it'd be great for you to, to get on there and for us to have this conversation cuz she has plenty of, uh, expertise and background and knowledge. Worked with several different school systems and has a lot of just insights to, uh, the world in special education in particular. We're gonna narrow our focus today a little bit on autism, but, uh, you know, we'll see where the, the conversation goes, but we didn't want to make this too broad, but yet not too, too, uh, focused as well. So hopefully this will help our, uh, viewers out there, as many of us deal with, uh, students that have autism or in practitioners that work with students with autism. So, Angie, with that, welcome.
Speaker 3 00:02:28 Hello guys. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 00:02:32 My pleasure.
Speaker 2 00:02:34 All right, so we'll start off today with the question just, just in general, for the practitioners out there, like mm-hmm. <affirmative>. What, what are some ways that people can prepare to work with students that have, uh, at, at different age levels, students with autism?
Speaker 3 00:02:51 Well, obviously knowledge is power. And so when you first meet a student or a child or anything, um, who may be on the autism spectrum, mean patience. Patience is definitely key. You also have to remember that some kids on the spectrum, um, have like little things that they, they don't like to be touched, certain smells and textures in foods. Um, some kids may not, may be non-verbal, may require you to know a little bit of sign language or the use of, they use an augmentative device like an iPad that talks for them. Um, yeah, so it's just, uh, especially if a child is, um, nonverbal, um, it's really important to make sure you're always talking with them so that they can start to understand speech and the communication. Um, a lot of the kids too may have some repetitive behaviors, like rocking or flapping or, I had a student, um, when I was teaching, um, at Battlefield High School in Haymarket, Virginia, um, who she could not walk on the lines in the floors, so she would actually have to tiptoe all through the, um, the school. And then as soon as she would get out of the cla out of the hallway, she could walk on norm walk normally. So some of those little things, those little quirks, um, that you, you'll find, um, happen when you get to know the, um, students a little better.
Speaker 1 00:04:38 Um, so it, it's, it's interesting. One of the things just in my experience in working with, with young people, uh, for a bit has been recognizing how involved parents and caregivers are in their young people's lives, especially with, with the young people you're describing. Um, talk a little bit about how, uh, teachers and other, uh, uh, folks, practitioners, uh, have to really develop the relationships in a, in a much stronger way with their parents or caregivers of, of some of these young people.
Speaker 3 00:05:13 Well, the thing that I always like to do is I like to actually have a conversation with the parents. Um, kind of, I mean, it's, it's, it's different, um, than working with a, a child, say with a, a specific learning disability such as, you know, um, written language, kids on the, um, kiddos, students on the spectrum, they need, we need a little bit more insight. So I always like to talk to the parents, find out the likes, dislikes of the kids, um, talk with, interview their caregivers. I mean, caregivers can be parents, um, grandparents, a lot of the kids who, um, you know, may be, um, on the lower end of the spectrum, get a, have a lot of different resources they're given. So like maybe applied behavior analysis, so you're talking to their ABA therapists, but just talking with them, find out their quirks, what they like and they don't like. And then really it's about getting down at the kids' level, um, observing them, trying to, you know, figure out how they, what they like, what they don't like. Um, yeah, it's just, it's one of my, one of my things. I lo I love it. I think they, they are all, all kids are awesome, but I kind of have a little, um, yeah, kinda, it's my, my thing I like, I like, I love working with the kids on the spectrum, so,
Speaker 1 00:06:51 Well, now one of the things that, that we were talking about in preparing for this is, is there's a con, there's a growing, um, movement of mm-hmm. <affirmative> working with, uh, young people on the spectrum, assimilated in the same class with, uh, folks that aren't diagnosed that way and, and, and, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and that's a change in education over the last 20 years. There used to be more of the segregation, uh, and now there's a movement to, to bring everybody into the classroom and then provide additional help or support when needed, um, either within that classroom or, you know, to supplement that class. So talk about that kind of increased challenge and need for, uh, all teachers to be, uh, equipped, uh, to work with the, the young people we're describing.
Speaker 3 00:07:40 Um, well, obviously you need to really, um, we need to do research, right? I mean, the people who are in the trenches and know the kids the best need to actually work with the, um, so I'm a special education teacher. I am, I push into all the classes. So when I, when I get my caseload and I realize that I have a several students on the spectrum, um, that are going to be in, um, mainstream classes with their non non-disabled peers, neurotypical peers, I usually like to, um, have a meeting with the teachers to give them some background information on, on the kiddo and make sure they're understanding some of their, you know, their quirks. Um, but then it also goes back to, like you said, there's been a pendulum, pendulum swinging, um, about in including all of the kids, um, on the spectrum, high functioning on the lower end to get into the classroom with their peers.
Speaker 3 00:08:54 And I think, think it's like when I was in high school, like a long time ago, are the kids with, um, on the spectrum were not integrated into the classrooms with their peers. In fact, I didn't even know what that was, what, um, autism spectrum disorder was when I was in high school. But now I think it's a little better. The kids are actually in the, their peers, their neurotypical peers are actually more engaged with the kids because they've grown up with them. Um, but I think the other piece too is that the educators need to be made aware of, you know, likes, dislikes, um, what are some triggers, maybe they have, I mean, it's, um, yeah, just, it's just about getting, having knowledge brought to them and making sure that they're open to that information. Uh, there are some teachers who really struggle with change. Um, they're there just to, you know, get the curriculum put out and not really build that rapport with, with the students. But with a, um, student on the spectrum, you really need to go a little bit more above and beyond to, um, make sure you bill that rapport with them.
Speaker 2 00:10:20 Yeah. But like, let's dig a little bit deeper into to that, just a, just a little bit because, uh, you know, we, we, we actually had conversation this weekend. We, we, we learned a new term neurodiversity there. Yes. In terms of this broad spectrum here. But, uh, let's, these, these are preventative things. And sometimes, you know, for some of our practitioners that aren't necessarily in education, uh, they may run into, uh, young people that they maybe don't know, and sometimes they, they get into what I like to call the meltdown stage there, where a student kinda gets irritated slash agitated. Like, what are some best practices for folks that wind up in that situation and, uh, kind of deescalating the situation
Speaker 3 00:11:14 Most of the time? Um, there'll be a, you'll see that there's a trigger, um, or it's either internally or externally. But I think part of it too is just making sure you give them them space. They, um, a lot of kids don't like people in their personal space, especially kids on the spectrum don't like to be touched. Um, that's a huge sensory, sensory overload, but making sure they're in a safe place, or at least getting them, having somebody that they trust come in, um, to help talk them down. Usually, usually when something like, like that happens for when I'm there, I usually, um, kind of give 'em a choice. You know, do you wanna stay here? Do you wanna go someplace else? It's all about taking back control for them and making sure that they're in a, they're in a good safe spot. Um, usually, and that's why it goes back to building a rapport, right?
Speaker 3 00:12:16 So if you've built this really good rapport with this student, nine times outta 10, you'll be able to, well, most of the time you should be able to say, okay, well, maybe there's a change in schedule, so this change in schedule is gonna throw so and so off. So being proactive and saying, okay, hey Billy, there's a, there's going to be a fire drill today. Or maybe you are in, uh, maybe they go and do horseback riding, therapeutic horseback riding, and the horse that they usually ride, uh, is not available. So making sure you let them know upfront, Hey, Billy, uh, your horse isn't gonna be available today. You're gonna ride this one. And then you kind of give them some time to kind of process, um, kind of what's going on. But it's also too about just using concrete language, you know, um, getting your point across using precise language.
Speaker 1 00:13:16 Um, can you give us a couple examples, uh, of using concrete or precise language?
Speaker 3 00:13:21 Okay, so, um, let's say you're gonna give, give a child, um, a direction, right? So, um, maybe I'm teaching somebody how to do the laundry. Okay. So I have, I use the task analysis. Everything has been broken down, step by step in sequential order. So then, you know, I show them how to do that, but then maybe they get stuck. So I will give them concrete directions and say, um, Johnny, um, you know, you are going, um, when we're done with this, we are going to move on to this. So, um, and using, and usually fig figurative language is really hard for them, so don't use like idioms or slang that really, that's really hard for them to process. So just making sure you're using, I guess, adult language, lack, for lack of a better word, um, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:14:29 Yeah. Understood. Understood. So in, in this, I would imagine, and again, um, that there are various techniques that work better or differently depending on the age of the, the young person. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So kind of step us through maybe, um, let's say primary first through third grade, kindergarten through three third grade, and then maybe middle school and then high school, and just maybe what techniques or that might vary at those working with young people from those different age groups.
Speaker 3 00:15:03 The thing that's difficult is that once you've met one person on the spectrum, you've met one person on the spectrum, <laugh>. So they're all, so they're all different, right? Sure. So you can have, um, a student who is very high functioning, so above average, average to above average in intelligence. However, social skills are very difficult, right? So, um, they struggle with social communication. And so trying to get them to be part of a group, we'll use that as an example. Um, maybe doing like, um, playing basketball, learning how to play basketball in gym. Okay, well one that's a sensory overload piece for, for the kiddo. So usually they would probably wanna wear headphones to help with the noise. The second part would need to be do they actually understand or know what basketball is? Do they understand the rules of the game? And, um, how to actually like bounce a ball or catch the ball.
Speaker 3 00:16:18 But the other thing too, you have to remember is if you give a student on the spectrum, um, the rules to any sort of game and you decide to, um, change the rules, then you're gonna have problems. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, they're very rule, you know, um, some of the other things too, like if you are like, say kindergarten through third grade, so a lot of the kids have sensory issues, so making sure you're providing them, um, with like a chair that maybe rocks or, um, a fidgets to help them concentrate. Um, some of the other things too that are, that are really helpful are making sure they have a daily routine. So maybe a schedule so they know first, and then also doing first then is really helpful for the littler kids. First we're going to color this paper, then we're gonna go have snack. Or you ask, do you wanna color this paper first or have a snack first, which one you choose.
Speaker 3 00:17:29 Because part of it is, is they need to be able to, um, have a little bit of control. Plus it also helps with their flexibility, because as I said, if you are teaching a student how to play basketball, for example, and you give them the rules, if you change it, that that's a struggle. Um, some of the other things too are just, it really depends on to where they are on, on the spectrum. Um, but for the most part, you can, once you get to know the, the kid, the kids a little more, it's a little easier for you to, um, find strategies that help. Because they're not all one strategy. It does not fit all. Um, sure. So if you're gonna be in, let's say middle school and, um, you know, once the, the kids get into middle school, if they're on the lower end, it's now, it's of the spectrum.
Speaker 3 00:18:31 Now it's time to kind of start working on life, more life skills and social skills more. Um, can they, can they count change? Do they know how? Well now, you know, back in the day when I was teaching <laugh> life skills, we counted coins, we learned how to do, we wrote checks out and all that kind of stuff. Now we don't do that. Um, they still need to know how to do count change in money, but it's different because you have that now we have those debit cards, um, but also do they know how to read money? How to read the prices of something going grocery shopping. So that's one thing. Um, just those strategies are more life skills, more hands-on. Um, and then as far as like the, um, maybe the kids who are higher up on the spectrum, it's all about giving them, I don't know, you have to, they need to know what's coming.
Speaker 3 00:19:40 They need to know, um, maybe as far as like, maybe they're going to a friend's house for the first time, they're gonna have a, have a sleepover. You actually have to teach the kids how to have a sleepover. Um, cause it's, I know it sounds strange, but you need to teach them. Do they know how to, um, you know, are they going to, are they gonna sleep in the sleep on the floor? Are they gonna sleep in an extra bed? What do they do? What do you do if you get scared? Who are you going to call? What are you going, you know? Um, I'd also talk, also need to talk, teach them about expected and unexpected, um, comments and social situations. Um, because if I'm at my house and my parents let me jump on my bed, great. But if I go to Tommy's house and Tommy's parents don't want me to jump on the bed, I need to know that.
Speaker 3 00:20:44 Um, and so also, what type of communication should we use? Um, are we going to teach, uh, you know, I do, I did used to teach sl how to use slang, um, to my high schoolers, J because otherwise they were so formal in their speech. Um, let's see, what else. Yeah, I mean, the, obviously the high school kids, we do have a, had, we used to have a social skills group, um, which was one of the classes that the kids would take and we would help them learn, um, to read social cues and, um, you know, how to actually play a game and be okay, um, not winning. Um, and, you know, discussing other people's opinions. And if my opinion doesn't match your opinion, being okay with that. So agreeing to disagree, um, is something that, that, that our kids need to be taught. It doesn't always work, right? But there are still some adults in the world who still struggle with agreeing to disagree too. So it's not just kids on the spectrum. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:22:02 <laugh>. So, so, uh, last question for me, uh, if you could, and again, just, uh, um, just again, thinking about the folks that are listening and, and watching this episode, we've talked a lot about how to work, uh, with the, the young person that might be on the spectrum. Give us a couple tips on, on how to prepare the rest of a classroom to have, uh, young people that, that might be, uh, diagnosed in that way so that there's again, uh, as, as much a assimilation and res mutual respect can be, uh, present in the classroom.
Speaker 3 00:22:39 Um, so when, so when the kiddos are in elementary school, um, I have this really good book, um, and I couldn't find it today, but I will find the, I'll find it and, um, send you the information. I hope I don't even know if it's still in publication, but, um, but it's kind of about how all kids are different and the, um, students. Um, so I usually read the book about how kids are all different, and then we talk about, um, you know, everybody's different. Everybody has, um, as good at one thing or, um, and struggles with another one. And then I usually get the parents' permission to talk about, um, their child and how their child learns best with the, with the kids. Um, and then I may do like a little group lesson on, um, so I use this Play-Doh and we, you know, I'll hand out the Play-Doh and I'll tell the kids, okay, you're gonna start building or making whatever you want with this Play-Doh.
Speaker 3 00:23:57 And then after I set a timer and after one minute is up, I tell them, tell the kids I need to pass the Play-Doh. So they pass the entire thing of Play-Doh to the person, to their left, and then they get new Play-Doh. So then you have to try, and then you turn it into something different. And then again, we keep doing that. That's just to tell, help kids understand how frustrated you are when you can't finish something. But think about the, think about it on the other hand as, okay, kids on the spectrum, um, struggle more when they aren't able to finish something, right? Um, and then, yeah, I mean, so that's what I would do with that. And even in, um, when I get to high school, um, it's really important for the kids to advocate for themselves. Um, they need to be able to explain to teachers and their peers, Hey, I struggle with this, or, uh, this, um, this is, these are the things that I need that I, um, need you to know about.
Speaker 3 00:25:11 So I teach, um, English right now, um, and at the beginning of each, the start of each class, we, um, like the new term, we always have the kids write us a letter telling us something that we need to know about, about them that they don't want everybody to know, right? And then, um, we take that information and then we kind of, we use it for ourselves, but also it helps the, the kids be more comfortable about talking about some of their challenges that they have with their peers. So once they get older, it's really about can they advocate for themselves, um, up until they're like in seventh or eighth grade. Usually it's the teachers who are advocating and Right, talk to their peers. But once they get older, they need to learn how to do that for themselves with obviously s support, um, if need be. Right. But,
Speaker 2 00:26:13 Well, cool. Well, thanks, Angie, that's, this has been really informational and, uh, hopefully if you want to get us that information, we'll get it out for folks. And, uh, we really appreciate you coming on and, and having this conversation with us.
Speaker 3 00:26:30 Well, thank you for inviting me. It was fun.
Speaker 1 00:26:32 Absolutely. And, and again, we recognize that we're just beginning to scratch the surface in a very complex, uh, area. Um, and so hopefully this is the first, first of, of many conversations that will, uh, enable us to, to maybe share additional strategies, uh, to, to help work with, uh, all young people. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, so again, Angie, thanks for taking some time, uh, to, to be a part of our conversation. Absolutely. Thank you. All right. So thank you so much for joining us on Eliminate the Gap. Um, we look forward to a wonderful season three, and, uh, we can't wait, uh, to bring the rest of the season to you. So with that, we'll see you next time.
